✻ [BOOKS] ✯ Pagan Christianity: Exposing the Roots of Our Church Practices By Frank Viola ❅ – Livre-game-of-thrones.co

10 thoughts on “Pagan Christianity: Exposing the Roots of Our Church Practices

  1. says:

    I can see by the comments that people are pretty divided on this book For those that say the author is good at pointing out the problems but offers no solutions, I would like to point out that the book has a sequal called Re imaginig Church that does offer detail on how to fix the problem Some criticize him for not being and expert in Bible theology or church history and is therefore not qualified to make such arguments To those I would ask if they demand the same qualifications when reading the writings of the apostle Paul or the disciples These type of comments only enforce one of the main points of this book that we now rely on prestige, positions, and qualifications than we do on the Holy Ghost It seems that those who are against this book are either unwilling to admit that there are serious problems with doing church or they have never read the Bible objectively without the church goggles that have been given to them by their pastors and or evengelists or other self proclaimed spiritual gurus Someone in one of the comments had the audacity to suggest that the author does not provide good sources for his history This is simply not the case as over 1 3 of the total page space is dedicated to listing sources and evidence for his arguments Others have a problem with him stating a case for house churches as the only way to do things Here s the bottom line It doesn t matter if you agree or disagree with what is in the book It either lines up with scripture or it doesn t I will be the first to acknowledge that the Bible doesn NOT give a specific set of instructions are draw out one way to do church I also understand that the way we as Christians operate is in fact influenced by our culture and that there is nothing wrong with that to a certain degree However, some things in scripture ARE plainly stated and when a system or way of doing things steals God s authority and gives it to men, when our resources are used to pay salaries and maintain facilities instead of feeding the hungry and taking the gospel to the lost, and when that system harms people and misrepresents scripture, then something has got to change I am than happey to discuss this with anyone, whether that be a new Christian or a qualified Bible expert I m not one to state my case and then write off everyone else as crazy E mail questions or comments for furthur discussion to mattpetersen_7 yahoo.com.

  2. says:

    I wasn t very far into this book before I began skimming my way through and I most likely would have just dumped it, but I d agreed to discuss it with a couple other pastors one of whom found it immensely troubling.So, why did I skim Because the history is weak, the biblical interpretation is often questionable, and the author only works with sources that agree with him He ignores the didache the Apostles handbook for ministry , and passes off the writings of Clement and Ignatius as early breaks from New Testament Christianity , never mind that other alternative views like the Gnostics are directly condemned in Scripture see 1, 2, and 3rd John.This isn t to say that there is nothing good in the book Rather, I would say there are some solid points to be sifted out, such as the high overhead cost of church buildings as we have them today, the general teaching that the church is the same as a building, the allowance that doing your weekly hour of time constitutes a faithful Christian life, and a congregation that is largely passive.However, on the whole, I d say Viola does the exact same thing as those he criticizes While there are some who read church as we understand it into the New Testament, Viola does exactly the same thing from a radically different angle an approach that flows out of his personal story of frustration and discontent in the traditional church The truth of course lies somewhere in between, and the question remains, just how much of what appears in the New Testament is descriptive gives a snapshot of some of the things that were going on rather than prescriptive tells us how to do things for all time.So, if there is good in this book, why such a harsh rating Because the book seeks to capitalize on a very legitimate and widespread discontent with the church as we have it today, and does so in a way that is academically dishonest and therefore deceives well intentioned and God loving people with rhetoric seasoned to feed off of their honest questions and persuade them to join an equally wrong position.

  3. says:

    This book was worth reading as it challenged me to think outside the box Not enough books do this as people tend now to mirror each others thoughts in an attempt to appeal to the masses This book goes against the grain of traditional church thinking and practice Books like this are helpful as they encourage sincere Christians to reflect on their own position on these issues by a thorough examination of Scripture This is always a good thing.That said, I think the author leans to extremes in some chapters and that in some cases the extremes would be dangerous in practice Although he often mentions that his ideal church scenarios work, he doesn t give enough detail about this for it to be proven He also glosses over omits some Bible verses that conflict with his view and uses others out of context to support his position He goes back to the roots of all of the practices I am about to list in an attempt to prove that they have originated from pagan sources His argument is that we are not following the Biblical pattern for church as per the New Testament My first thoughts would be that it doesn t matter whether or not our practices have pagan roots BUT it does matter whether or not they are Biblical AND that we seek as far as possible to follow the NT principles for church The author is an advocate of the house church. He covers1 The Church building Author states we don t need church buildings and we spend too much money on them The church is the people of God and not the building I agree with the author.2 The Order of Worship Author states that the order is pagan and encourages dull routines and a lack of audience participation Author advocates a Spirit led approach with no set plan order I agree that our church routines order are inflexible and should be participatory, but I can see problems arising from opening up the floor so to speak due to the numbers of non believers nominal Christians in our churches This wasn t the case in NT times due to the persecution the vast majority of the participants were believers Maybe this would work in a small group setting if the meeting is properly led by at least one mature believer.3 The Sermon Author states we shouldn t have a sermon message as it encourages laziness and again a lack of participation He implies that no set person should be leading a meeting preaching a sermon He tries to make a case for preaching teaching being unBiblical and only relevant to non believers as an evangelistic appeal I don t agree with this as preaching teaching is clearly practiced in the NT both to believers and non believers 4 The Pastor Author states we shouldn t have paid Pastors Church Officers Clergy as again it causes laziness lack of participation, that the Pastor is the only person who can speak in the church or who has anything spiritual to say I think there is an over reliance on the Pastor in many churches and too high an expectation burden placed on them But I do think that church leaders are important and biblical 5 Sunday Morning Costumes Author states we shouldn t dress up for church as we are presenting a false impression of who we are I think this is a non issue as it s a personal preference and can be different in different cultures different churches 6 Minister of Music Author has issues with the choir and using pagan funeral practices Also thinks the leaders shouldn t choose the songs as the church is not then being led by the Spirit Again I think there is balance needed here some order needs to be maintained but maybe our current practice is too inflexible.7 Tithing and Clergy Salaries Author doesn t believe in tithing or paying clergy He states this encourages people to only give 10% and that tithing is not biblical I agree that we shouldn t limit Christians giving to 10% but I think that for new believers a base line is important as a guide.8 Baptism and the Lord s Supper Author states that we should baptise people straight after conversion I agree that there is no need for a delay, except perhaps with children who may need time to mature give public testimony Author believes the Lord s Supper should be celebrated as a full meal and that our symbolism ritual is pagan I don t think the method is especially important but that we remember Jesus death and resurrection.9 Christian Education Author states that those aspiring to be Christian leaders should learn in a Paul Timothy type environment and not go to Bible school I agree that the personal study of God s Word is important than whether or not someone has got a formal education and that sometimes these institutions can be confusing than helpful.So overall a mixed picture.I did read a worrying article about the author himself which suggests that he may have an agenda and is supported encouraged linked with some controversial figures and members of the Emergent Church I would recommend this book for readers who like to be challenged know what they believe but not for new believers or those less spiritually mature as it could cause confusion extremes of thinking.

  4. says:

    Reading this book changed my view about many things that I thought I understood regarding contemporary, North American Christianity and the traditional, organizational church not the Body of Christ And it set me free to relate to my heavenly Father, through Jesus in the power of Holy Spirit, in a way I never knew even existed.I recommend the book highly But, get ready for a ride that will shock you and, sometimes, maybe even upset you But you ll settle down after you pray You may choose not to like the book But, you ll have difficulty arguing against Frank Viola s and George Barna s thesis because of their thorough original research in church history and their comprehensive and thorough documentation of what they found.Blessings GaryFPatton gfp 42 2012 04 15

  5. says:

    Frank Viola likes house church Using the flawed proof texting method that he so vehemently criticizes in the book, he proves that it is the only New Testament way to do church If he cites 1 Corinthians 14 26 one time he cites it 100 Then in other places he sounds so much like Alexandar Cambell I wonder if he came from the Cambellite movement Cambellites like to say, If it isn t in the NT it is unscriptural Which is why the strict ones still don t use pianos in their meetings I dont recommend this book to anyone I like house church too But I don t want to make the mistake of concluding that everyone else is wrong then.

  6. says:

    Note I m only half way through at the time of this review This is a book that when I get to the end of my day, no matter how exhausted I am, I have to read it This is a sign of a good book to me If I d rather go to bed than read it, then it s not that good.I have really enjoyed the historical references for how the modern church has evolved or devolved according to the author While I don t share the same passion for a pure form of early church worship, I can appreciate how this would be a desired form of worship for those who do have that passion I will say this book has definitely challenged my blind acceptance of all church traditions To me, that can be a good thing I m not threatened by being challenged in what I believe and accept I do recommend this book to those who don t mind that challenge I will caution that if you re diehardedly committed to your denomination, you might be threatened by the challenge this book can bring to your sense of security in being a member of your religious affiliation.

  7. says:

    Wow This one is heavy You have to spend some time after you ve read it to think about the implications This is a book that by implication asks you at the end, So what are you going to do about it I love the Hans Christian Anderson quote at the beginning I also chuckled over The Calf Path, by Sam Walter Foss, quoted in the introduction I had seen it before, but not in years.I thought a few of the connections to paganism were a little overdrawn, but all in all it is a compelling book.

  8. says:

    This book was not what I thought it would be Full disclosure I am, for all intents and purposes, an atheist I don t believe in invisible sky wizards, zombie jesus, space aliens from another galaxy, or thetans, or jolly old bald fat men ascending to another plane of existence, or anything like that I don t care what you choose to believe in, but I don t like being told what I should believe in Now that that s out of the wayI thought it would be a historical book that exposed the origins of modern day church practices that have been taken from and or borrowed from Pagan traditions over the history of the church It does that To a point But then it goes beyond that In essence, the main point of this book, in my opinion, is this Our version of Christianity is better than yours because yours sucks and you re doing it all wrong, and it says so in the New Testament This book had the potential to be a lot of things historical, religious, inspirational, and so on, but in trying to be all of them, it was none of them It had a few good points chapter 11, about how modern day Christians tend to approach the bible out of context and as a jigsaw puzzle, was rather interesting , but overall I d have to say that the constant tone of contemporary christianity sucks because of x, y, and z and our way is better because we get back to the original meaning got to be irritating as I progressed through the book The book is a bit unique in that it challenges Christians to re evaluate their faith, practice, and way of doing both, and for that I applaud it But the manner in which it presents it s argument trying to be historical compared with how it actually does it leaves much to be desired The author of the book has good intentions, considering his overall message and point Christians acting like Christ in order to practice their faith, instead of parroting dogma, chapter and verse, and condemning others who don t act like them, eschewing them, and doing anything possible to save their souls He also goes on to talk about how modern day practices from the actual physical church building, order of worship, sermon, pastor, Sunday best clothing, music, tithing pay attention, Mormons and Professional clergy, baptism, the lord s supper, and christian education, how all of these are rooted in either Greek, Roman, or pagan traditions that were absorbed into the practice at the time Why Well, membership was low, and instead of having people upend all their traditions, you simply adapt the new thing to their known way of life Ironically, the point the author makes of how the modern day church is off is very in sync with another author philosopher s view on what was wrong with the church, and how it was all screwed up not because of the founder, but because of those who came afterwards Nietzsche s The Anti Christ Did I learn a lot about the church history and it s practices Yes However, the historical analysis from someone who as far as I know is not trained in such practices makes the authority of the book suspect In addition, the author was quite unsanitary when it came to making his arguments he would be making a valid historical point, and then in the next sentence, attach religious toned language about how following God Christ was supposed to be this way In certain ways, it feels now that I think about it that he was guilty of committing his own sin of using historical analysis in a jigsaw puzzle method in order to make his point It s either one way or the other, but it can t be both, especially when you are trying to trace the historical development of something objectively to prove a point Another issue I had with the book was the issue of citation I got the impression that the author felt that if he just cited sources to support his point, then he d done all his homework regarding how to prove his point, and then he would just go on to the next point It was frustrating because there was no causal analysis that I m used to having when I read historical texts Overall, I m glad I read the book so that, if I ever get into another theological argument with someone who is a parroter of chapter and verse, I can easily defend my argument However, the writing of the book could have used much revision, or better yet, an stringent academic approach to the topic which, I think, would have yielded much better, clearer, sanitary results If you re a die hard Christian fiending to get back at the way real Christians lived, I d recommend buying this book If you just want to learn about the history of the church and its practices, then I d suggest borrowing and or getting it from the library.

  9. says:

    I couldn t finish it The authors talk a lot about facts, but give very little proof or take things out of context to prove their point Neither author is a Church historian by training and it shows in this book.quote Until the year 300 Neither did they have a special priestly caste that was set apart to serve God pg 12First off I doubt either the Catholic or Orthodox church would call the priestly function a caste perhaps calling would have been a bit less abrasive But, importantly, where is their documentation to make such a statement Did they forget about Polycarp Ignatius Did the church come up with the office of Bishops and Presbyters just in time for the Council of Nicea Then I found this review This pretty much sums it up for me.If you want to learn about Early Church first read the Apostolic Father s themselves The Apostolic FathersOr, if you want an overview of practice doctrine these authors are quite good ChadwickBradshawHallPelikanWare It is therefore befitting that you should in every way glorify Jesus Christ, who has glorified you, that by a unanimous obedience you may be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment, and may all speak the same thing concerning the same thing, and that, being subject to the bishop and the presbytery, you may in all respects be sanctified..For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, Matthew 24 25 as we would do Him that sent him It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself St Ignatius 117AD in the Letter to the Ephesians

  10. says:

    A powerful book If you re not at a place in your spiritual walk where you have a firm faith in God, this will yeild an uneasy, angry, or even worse flippant reaction To me, however, it addressed and or confirmed many vague concepts I ve had about church vs The Church over the past years It s a book that will change your understanding of biblical worship and community.My overwhelming reaction was dissapointment when I realized there were VERY few people you can honestly work through a book like this with Any pastor or church worker will never be able to deal with it honestly because they ve basically staked their entire lives on this book being wrong Therefore, I won t even try to have an honest discussion with them about it Then there are people who just aren t ready for itthey re convinced that American Church is birthed directly from the bible and have no willingness to look outside that box for the truth.While I find this book inspiring and informative, I mostly find it sad that it s something that can t really be shared Maybe just passing it along to someone is the best hope of a future honest discussion of the concepts

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Pagan Christianity: Exposing the Roots of Our Church Practices summary pdf Pagan Christianity: Exposing the Roots of Our Church Practices, summary chapter 2 Pagan Christianity: Exposing the Roots of Our Church Practices, sparknotes Pagan Christianity: Exposing the Roots of Our Church Practices, Pagan Christianity: Exposing the Roots of Our Church Practices 018b8a8 This Book Traces The Historical Roots Of Protestant Church Practices And Asks If The Modern Way Of Doing Church Is A Departure Or A Development From What Jesus And The Apostles Taught A Recent Interview Where The Authors George Barna And Frank Viola Answer Objections And Challenges Book Isn T To Be Read Alone, But Is To Be Read With The Constructive Sequel, REIMAGINING CHURCH The Official Website With Author Q A Is

  • Hardcover
  • 269 pages
  • Pagan Christianity: Exposing the Roots of Our Church Practices
  • Frank Viola
  • English
  • 09 February 2018
  • 9781414314853